Comments on: Missions, the ultimate goal of the Church? http://warin.me/2008/05/missions-the-ultimate-goal-of-the-church/ Fighting for Holiness Sun, 06 Dec 2009 13:10:27 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Dustin Wright http://warin.me/2008/05/missions-the-ultimate-goal-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-37 Dustin Wright Thu, 29 May 2008 01:36:45 +0000 http://warin.me/?p=222#comment-37 Todd, it's good to hear from you, and I appreciate your challenges. They help me to think through my positions as well as the positions of others, that I might not otherwise be challenged to do were it not for you. As always it's great to see your passion for the lost. And, you are absolutely right. God's glory over a person's salvation does not depend upon the “quality of the Christian” who goes, but upon the Holy Spirit who gives faith to believe in the message. Jesus says in Luke 15:7 that “there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” Heaven rejoices over sinners repenting, and is silent over the masses of people who hold a false self righteousness; although it longs for the “righteous” to repent as well, that there might be rejoicing (worship to God) over their salvation too. Also, Paul says something interesting that could be used to show that the gospel is totally independent of the messenger. I must clarify up front that I do not intend to link the “casual” Christian to the people who Paul is talking about, I only want to use the text to show that a person's “knowledge” of the gospel or even intent is not the important driving force behind salvation. <blockquote> 15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Philippians 1:15-18 </blockquote> The important thing is that Christ is preached, by new and old, immature and mature, passionless and passionate people to all peoples that they may seem Him, not us. The method isn't really all that important, and quite honestly, neither is the messenger. So the Glory of God is not dependent upon mans obedience or passion. But I would suggest that the person “who only went because his pastor or Sunday school teacher or wife told him he had to” looses out on joy. Yes people can be saved through his passionless presentation of the gospel, but he looses the opportunity of joy that he could have in Christ were he to believe, deep down, what he preaches. The Piper quote to me, means that people that treasure Christ will see opportunity to increase their own worship of God and increase other people's worship of what is supremely valuable; Christ, through missions. I think he is making the argument that missions only exist now because all of God's people have not yet been saved, and therefore there are people that God created to worship Him (His children) who have not yet heard the gospel, but will one day because of mission minded people who will bring the message, and God will send the Spirit to speak to them and give them faith to see and believe what their hearts were calloused to for so long. And they will live lives of worship and worship God for all eternity. He is, I am, not arguing against missions, just the opposite. There are people who God has yet to save and people who see His glory and worship Him for who He is will overflow into missional living because they desire that God would be glorified through being the joy of the nations, and they know that their greatest joy is in Him who saves. As to your second paragraph, I think your premise about people possibly being absent from Heaven because they didn't receive the message from somebody that should have brought it is flawed. Like you said, it is “after all God, through the blood of Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit who saves.” So, if it is God who saves, and it is necessary for Him to work in the lives of people to bring about salvation, it then stands to reason that it is He who does not send the same Spirit to bring about faith to salvation to the ones who are not saved. It, then, is also true that everyone who God wills to save will be saved. So, casual or not, it is God who saves and therefore God who hardens. There will be none who are locked out of the kingdom because of the action or inaction man. God will save each and every one of His children not matter how passionate or casual we are. Todd, it’s good to hear from you, and I appreciate your challenges. They help me to think through my positions as well as the positions of others, that I might not otherwise be challenged to do were it not for you.

As always it’s great to see your passion for the lost. And, you are absolutely right. God’s glory over a person’s salvation does not depend upon the “quality of the Christian” who goes, but upon the Holy Spirit who gives faith to believe in the message. Jesus says in Luke 15:7 that “there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” Heaven rejoices over sinners repenting, and is silent over the masses of people who hold a false self righteousness; although it longs for the “righteous” to repent as well, that there might be rejoicing (worship to God) over their salvation too.

Also, Paul says something interesting that could be used to show that the gospel is totally independent of the messenger. I must clarify up front that I do not intend to link the “casual” Christian to the people who Paul is talking about, I only want to use the text to show that a person’s “knowledge” of the gospel or even intent is not the important driving force behind salvation.

15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.
Philippians 1:15-18

The important thing is that Christ is preached, by new and old, immature and mature, passionless and passionate people to all peoples that they may seem Him, not us. The method isn’t really all that important, and quite honestly, neither is the messenger. So the Glory of God is not dependent upon mans obedience or passion.

But I would suggest that the person “who only went because his pastor or Sunday school teacher or wife told him he had to” looses out on joy. Yes people can be saved through his passionless presentation of the gospel, but he looses the opportunity of joy that he could have in Christ were he to believe, deep down, what he preaches.

The Piper quote to me, means that people that treasure Christ will see opportunity to increase their own worship of God and increase other people’s worship of what is supremely valuable; Christ, through missions. I think he is making the argument that missions only exist now because all of God’s people have not yet been saved, and therefore there are people that God created to worship Him (His children) who have not yet heard the gospel, but will one day because of mission minded people who will bring the message, and God will send the Spirit to speak to them and give them faith to see and believe what their hearts were calloused to for so long. And they will live lives of worship and worship God for all eternity.

He is, I am, not arguing against missions, just the opposite. There are people who God has yet to save and people who see His glory and worship Him for who He is will overflow into missional living because they desire that God would be glorified through being the joy of the nations, and they know that their greatest joy is in Him who saves.

As to your second paragraph, I think your premise about people possibly being absent from Heaven because they didn’t receive the message from somebody that should have brought it is flawed. Like you said, it is “after all God, through the blood of Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit who saves.” So, if it is God who saves, and it is necessary for Him to work in the lives of people to bring about salvation, it then stands to reason that it is He who does not send the same Spirit to bring about faith to salvation to the ones who are not saved. It, then, is also true that everyone who God wills to save will be saved. So, casual or not, it is God who saves and therefore God who hardens. There will be none who are locked out of the kingdom because of the action or inaction man. God will save each and every one of His children not matter how passionate or casual we are.

]]> By: Todd http://warin.me/2008/05/missions-the-ultimate-goal-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-36 Todd Wed, 28 May 2008 22:27:32 +0000 http://warin.me/?p=222#comment-36 Is God less glorified if a sinner hears the Good News and repents, but he heard it from a reluctant missionary who only went because his pastor or Sunday school teacher or wife told him he had to? Does Heaven not rejoice in new salvations regardless of the "motivation" of the person sharing the Gospel? Is it not after all God, through the blood of Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit who saves? I would never mean to imply that a bad motivation is a good thing. I'm simply saying that "When this age is over, and the countless millions of the redeemed fall on their faces before the throne of God", what if 1 or 2 or 10 or 1000 are absent because a "casual" Christian decided not to go somewhere and meet God and join Him in the work He was doing? Is God less glorified if a sinner hears the Good News and repents, but he heard it from a reluctant missionary who only went because his pastor or Sunday school teacher or wife told him he had to? Does Heaven not rejoice in new salvations regardless of the “motivation” of the person sharing the Gospel? Is it not after all God, through the blood of Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit who saves?

I would never mean to imply that a bad motivation is a good thing. I’m simply saying that “When this age is over, and the countless millions of the redeemed fall on their faces before the throne of God”, what if 1 or 2 or 10 or 1000 are absent because a “casual” Christian decided not to go somewhere and meet God and join Him in the work He was doing?

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